SB Nation Baseball Hall of Fame
Vizquel has signed on for a 24th MLB season in 2012 with the Toronto Blue Jays. Does his career stack up as Hall-worthy?
Jan 27, 2012 - Recently, I wrote about the possibility that Jamie Moyer, who is trying to catch on with the Colorado Rockies this year, could get Hall of Fame consideration in the future, in part due to the sheer longevity of his career and his productivity late into his 40s.
Many of you were skeptical of my position on Moyer. So let's try this with someone else.
There's another man who will play again in 2012 who has had a very long career, is playing competently into his middle 40s (he'll turn 45 in April) and who some think might rate Hall of Fame consideration. I'm talking about Omar Vizquel, who recently signed on with the Toronto Blue Jays.
Many think Vizquel is a shoo-in for eventual Hall of Fame induction, given his longevity, his defensive skills, and his counting stat of 2841 hits (every eligible player with more is in the Hall, although that might change soon with the upcoming eligibility of Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro).
At Hardball Talk, Matthew Poullot is skeptical of Vizquel's Hall credentials:
In 23 seasons, he’s been listed on an MVP ballot once: someone gave him an eighth-place vote in 1999. That was deserved: by Baseball-reference WAR, he was the AL’s fifth-best player in 1999, so there was definitely an argument for him getting a few more down-ballot votes.
But even in his best year, Vizquel wasn’t viewed as one of the AL’s top 10 players. In most years, hardly anyone would have put him in the top 20. Is that really a Hall of Famer? There’s something to be said for being very good for a long time, but was Vizquel even very good?
I think this is a valid point. Jamie Moyer, at least, had a couple of 20-win seasons and finished in the top six of Cy Young voting three times. Vizquel appeared on MVP ballots just once. But then there's the letters "GG" all over his baseball-reference page, as Poullot points out:
The driving force for Vizquel will be the 11 Gold Gloves. Ozzie Smith (13) and Brooks Robinson (16) are the only infielders with more. Offensively, Vizquel matches up nicely with Hall of Famers Luis Aparicio and Rabbit Maranville. He’s a notch below Smith.
That Ozzie was seen by many as such a no-brainer helps Vizquel immensely. After all, if Ozzie is so obviously a Hall of Famer and Vizquel was only a little worse offensively and a little worse defensively, then he must make the cut, too.
I'm not convinced here, either. We should put the poor man's Ozzie Smith into the Hall? There was some controversy about Smith's induction, too.
Also, look at some Hall of Famers with lower WAR than Vizquel -- and now we're talking about many others whose Hall inductions were viewed with less than favor, including Phil Rizzuto, Jim Rice, Elmer Flick, Ernie Lombardi and George Kell. Of course, Vizquel has 13.3 dWAR, which seems impressive for a shortstop until you look at the career defensive WAR leaders and you find Rey Sanchez at 14.2.
Omar Vizquel has never led his league in anything except sacrifice hits, and his career total is 255, which leads active players (by a lot -- next among active players is Juan Pierre with 144) and seems high, until you note that it's about half the all-time most (Eddie Collins, 512).
Vizquel, by all accounts, is a great guy and has been much like a coach/mentor with the White Sox the last two seasons. He'll probably do the same for many young players in Toronto this year. But to me, his career calls for induction into what Rob Neyer calls the "Hall of Amazing", for players who had done things that were... amazing, but not quite Hall-worthy.
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Comments
Nononononononononono
This one angers me. He’s barely been good, done nothing notable, just for a long time. If the HOF leaves some of the best players out because of … whatevers, and puts in mediocre players like Vizquel, just blow the whole thing up and start over. Its meaningless at that point. if he gets in this would be by far the worst case in recent memory, much worse than Sutter or Jim Rice.
I'm not impressed by your performance......
by closetasfan on Jan 27, 2012 12:49 PM EST reply actions
I love Omar.
Especially from his Mariners years, and I think he’s a great player. But not a Hall of Famer. Though I think it’s plausible he could make it someday as a manager.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 27, 2012 1:11 PM EST reply actions
Hall of Pretty Good
by aronofsky40 on Jan 27, 2012 1:27 PM EST reply actions
Hall of the Durable or Hall of the Persistent
by Jim Baker on Jan 27, 2012 2:40 PM EST reply actions
No, just no
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Pete Rose
Those guys are Hall of Famers, Vizquel has had a nice career but is not good enough to be considered a Hall of Famer
by Guess Who's Back? on Jan 27, 2012 3:07 PM EST reply actions
Well, that's not fair
I agree Vizquel is not a Hall of Famer, but you don’t have to be one of the 10 best players of all time to be one, either. You even demonstrated that fact by including Pete Rose – who is neither in the HOF nor one of the game’s top 10 (or 20) players – in your list.
by GBSimons on Jan 27, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Omar Vizquel trivia
He is the last active player to have played in a game at Exhibition Stadium in Toronto and at the old Comiskey Park. In fact, he played in the very last game at the old Comiskey Park on 9/30/1990.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 27, 2012 3:09 PM EST reply actions
Well
Jamie Moyer’s back, does that include him?
by Guess Who's Back? on Jan 27, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Well
Jamie Moyer did appear in one game at the old Comiskey Park in 1990, so yes, he’ll qualify if he makes the Rockies.
Moyer did not play at Exhibition Stadium.
If he is active, there will be two remaining players — these two — who played in the 1980s.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 27, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Ten Years
I like to look at what a guy did during his peak, although it’s not always easy to figure out where that peak is. I think it’s fair to say, however, that the best ten consecutive years of Vizquel’s career (offensively, at least) were his age 29 – 38 seasons, 1996 – 2005. During this span, Vizquel hit .284/.354/.381, which translates to an OPS+ of only 92. This is probably not giving him enough credit for his OBP which is pretty good, though not spectacular. In any event, Vizquel got on base often enough to steal 261 bases and score 846 runs. That’s an average of 26 and 85 per year respectively. Again, these are valuable contributions, but nothing that would lead the league.
Baseball Reference gives him 28.5 WAR (3.9 dWAR) for this period, 2.9 per year. Ozzie Smith, by comparison — who also put up his best offensive numbers from ages 29 – 38, IMO — gets 48.6 WAR (14.1 dWAR) for his best ten years stretch. There’s no question that Ozzie is in the Hall because of his defense, and I’d say deservedly so. But he also managed to produce 34.5 oWAR over ten years, which is more than Vizquel’s ENTIRE WAR over his best decade.
Of course, WAR isn’t the end of the discussion, but I think it’s pretty clear that Vizquel pales in comparison to Ozzie Smith, offensively and defensively. And Smith wasn’t even that good offensively, so … how can anyone justify voting for Vizquel? It’s nice that he’s hung around for so long, but even at his best he wasn’t a Hall of Famer.
by chapman_123 on Jan 27, 2012 6:21 PM EST reply actions
short answer: no
long answer: no freaking way
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by papality on Jan 27, 2012 10:07 PM EST reply actions
Yes
Based on defense alone, plus an acceptable level of hitting, he should be in. No one flashed the leather like Omar
by Fielder's Choice on Jan 28, 2012 9:54 AM EST reply actions
huh?????
Unless you mean “No one played in the same style as Omar”. There are many who played defense better, and many of those (cf. the Rey Sanchez reference in the article) are would not be considered HOF-worthy in the middle of an acid trip.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
by jbg2772 on Jan 28, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
Well it seems that most of the reasons to say No to Omar are related to his not excellent offensive performance. Some of us need to consider that this is not the only metric used to consider a player as hall of famer, and that baseball used to be very different from what is has become over the last decades. Several things to point out here in favor of Little O:
1. His accomplishments (some of which are ignored here) clearly demonstrate that he is among the best shortstop’s that have ever played the game:
11 Gold Gloves, including nine straight between 1993-2001. Baseball’s all-time leader among shortstops in games played, double plays and fielding percentage (.984).
2. When Vizquel was at the peak of this career, the SS profile was not was it is today. It used to be that a shortstop needed to be excellent defensively and it was enough with decent offensive skills. He certainly cracked this profile with a superior defense and a better-than average offense. Today, the requirements have shifted towards a heavily offense-influenced profile.
3. It is not fair to use MVP voting to measure the Hall of Fame credentials of a shortstop. MVP is a measure that is highly related to offensive statistics that were not a common feature among SS. I wonder how many MVP awards were won by shortstops prior to the A-Rod era.
4. Even if some did not recognize his value (mostly defensive) at the time because he was not an offensive player (and that was what most people was looking for when rating players back then), that should not mean that he does not deserve to go in. It is dangerous for the game not to award players with unique baseball skills (fielding in this case) just because it was not offensively excellent. Baseball is about hitting and fielding, and I am sure that there are a lot of excellent hitters with poor defensive skills that have made their way into the Hall of Fame, why not Omar?
by hjparma on Jan 30, 2012 12:13 AM EST reply actions
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