Should full-time DHs like Adam Dunn be able to find jobs in either league? Or should they be put out of business forever? MLB should decide, one way or the other, when they realign the leagues.
Jan 23, 2012 - On April 6, 2013, we'll note the 40th anniversary of the first game in which a MLB team had a designated hitter, Ron Blomberg of the Yankees. Blomberg batted sixth and went 1-for-3 with a walk and an RBI in a 15-5 loss to the Red Sox.
Also on or about that date, the first MLB season in history with two equal-sized, 15-team leagues with interleague play sprinkled throughout the schedule will commence.
One of the reasons for the Astros' 2013 move to the AL, which I wrote about here last November, was to remove perceived inequities in scheduling. In other words, some teams felt they had a tougher road to the postseason (notably in the six-team NL Central compared to the four-team AL West, which is where the Astros will be moving from and to) than others. In realigning, MLB is acknowledging these inequities and attempting to do something about them. We don't yet know the exact form the schedule will take in 2013, but presumably every team will play one with approximately the same degree of difficulty.
However.
That leaves this as a possible scenario: Say the Red Sox are in a tough battle with the Rays and Yankees for a playoff spot, and the Angels are also fighting Boston for the new second wild-card berth.
But the Angels, Yankees and Rays have completed their interleague play, and the Red Sox have not, and there's a week left in the season ... and Boston has to travel to Philadelphia for an interleague series.
And their pitchers have to bat.
How is that fair? You'll say that all teams will (presumably) have the same number of interleague games and so Boston's DHs will be batting at some point while Yankees or Rays or Angels pitchers are hitting in NL parks, and you'd be right.
But is it fair to have one team have to do it during a pennant race while others don't? How can MLB's moguls continue to justify two different sets of rules, when there really aren't two different "leagues" any more? There aren't NL and AL presidents any more, as there were when the DH rule was instituted; the NL and AL are more like the NFL's NFC and AFC.
Having a DH rule in one league and not in the other would be like having three-point baskets in the NBA's Western Conference, but not in the Eastern Conference. Or two-point conversions in AFC home games, but not in NFC home games. (Which, incidentally, was the case in the old AFL; they had two-point conversions and the pre-merger NFL did not. When the leagues merged, they dumped the two-point conversion; when the NFL brought it back in 1994, it was for everyone, not half its teams.)
I'm not a huge fan of the DH. Raised on NL baseball as a Cubs fan, I've always liked the strategy, double-switches (when they're done right), etc. On the other hand, having watched Ted Lilly and Matt Garza attempt to hit over the last five seasons, maybe it's time for pitchers to put the bats down forever. Nearly all professional leagues except the NL and Japan's Central League use the DH.
Whichever side you take in this issue, I'd think you'd agree with this: It's time for MLB to have one set of rules. Either ditch the DH for both leagues, or have it throughout MLB, starting in 2013. If baseball wants fairness, that's a good place to start.
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Comments
The logic in your contention is sound
But it’s just so hard to ditch the tradition. I know that’s a lame thing to say, but there’s a … feel to it.
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by Brett Taylor on Jan 23, 2012 10:34 AM EST reply actions
I see what you mean.
But just because it’s been this way for 40 years, doesn’t mean it has to be this way forever.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I railed for years
about the unfairness of the unequal divisions. I’m a lifelong NLer, but I thought the unequal divisions were a far greater evil than the DH. I said all along I was willing to accept the DH as a price for equalizing the divisions.
Well, I got my wish. And if universal DH is the price for that, I’m OK with it.
BTW, with your Red Sox scenario, my answer to these types of situations is going to be the same as it is anytime I hear some college basketball team whine about its seeding in the NCAA tournament, or some NFL team complaining about how they didn’t get in the playoffs with a better record than a wild card that did.
My answer to all of this kind of thing is always going to be: Win all your games. You had the opportunity. Win them all in April, win them all in May, win them all in June … If you didn’t win all your games then STFU.*
*—Does not apply to the BCS, for obvious reasons.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 10:50 AM EST reply actions
That is just the thing
Suppose the Red Sox have to go to Philadelphia to finish the season while the Rays get the Twins at home and the Yankees get the Astros on the road. Given the current structure in the AL East, you would never know what could end up happening in the last three days of the season. For example, the Rays and Twins might be in a playoff battle of their own where the Rays are fighting the Twins for the second playoff spot along with Boston. Meanwhile the Astros could be trying to avoid 100 losses while the Phillies and Yankees have already clinched their divisions and are allowing their opponents to win. Result, Red Sox get a playoff spot and the Twins and Rays play an extra game to find out who will go to Boston for a one game series.
As for the other scenarios, the NFL has their tiebreakers and that sometimes keeps teams with better records out of the playoffs. Meanwhile, NCAA Tournament seeding is subjective in any sport. Usually the teams that complain about seeding are the mid-majors who get a lower seed than deserved, and most of that is due to CBS wanting the big teams to survive more. Besides that, what are you going to do with a Final Four of Gonzaga, Temple, Kent State, and George Mason. A Final Four of Indiana, UConn, Duke or North Carolina, and Kentucky sounds much better to the CBS Sports brass. Also, the Mid-major might get seeded 6th or 7th instead of 5th or 4th because of ratings. If they win their first three games, they get to play the number 1 seed on the second weekend which helps CBS. That brings us back to the complaint that the seed is lower than expected. Usually the people complaining are members of the media led by ESPN because Dickie V likes the team.
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by Jessy S on Jan 23, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
I appreciate the Killer quote, Jessy
Guys like him don’t come along often enough.
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
It's more of problem for American League fans that National League fans
Either way though, it has to be the same on both sides. MLB doesn’t want a situation like you mention above to ever happen, no matter how small of a chance. I’d rather have both leagues not have the DH because like you, I like the strategy and such NL managers have to use. However, I know the time of different rules for different leagues need to end.
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by TkGoUWGB on Jan 23, 2012 10:50 AM EST reply actions
I think most
of what people think of “strategy” when they think of managers and the DH is automatic decisions. You’re down 2-0 in the eighth inning and your pitcher comes to bat with two on, you hit for him. That’s not strategy. Your pitcher comes to bat in the second inning with a runner on first and one out, you bunt him. That’s not strategy. Strategy is an argument between managers about what they would do in certain situations. If 99.9 percent of managers would hit for the pitcher or bunt in those situations, there’s no strategy to it.
The DH may remove some actual strategy, but it’s probably largely replaced with figuring out who you use to DH on a particular day, and where you bat him in the lineup (plus you have to figure out when your pitcher has crossed the line between effective and ineffective, that move isn’t forced upon you by the game situation). There’s strategy in that. There’s no strategy at all in batting your pitcher ninth.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I think just because it’s an obvious decision doesn’t mean it’s not strategy
All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia
by Veni Vidi Vici on Jan 23, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
And I think it isn't ..
er, wait … is. Or isn’t …
Um, I think you’re wrong. Strategy that everyone employs, without question, without fail, is not strategy. It’s gospel.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Except that not everyone employs it, let alone without question.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
You gave us two scenarios
and then oversimplified your argument. The decision between a move for better offensive odds, or sacrificing that chance to keep a hot pitcher on the mound, is not an automatic decision. I’d call it tactical rather than strategic, but I am still disagreeing with you. Automatic? Ask Grady Little about his last playoff game as BOS manager.
I think having your batting and pitching decisions totally separate is not as interesting to me as a fan.
Either way, the rules need to be the same.
Ezekiel 25:17
by Tat14 on Jan 23, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
thank you
The myth of “more strategy” needs debunked.
by steel sox on Jan 23, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
That sentence needs a “to be.”
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
ha!
I didn’t realize regional colloquialism wasn’t allowed here!
by steel sox on Jan 23, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Ugh, wife is from Ohio and her family never uses "to be"
Absolutely drives me up the wall. There needs a verb in that sentence!
by bdlugz on Jan 23, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
and replaced
by the argument for “more tactical options” like they have in the NL.
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Bill James covered this nearly 20 years ago
I would need to see someone really engage his argument before I conceded the point.
by steel sox on Jan 23, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
* 30
by steel sox on Jan 23, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the reference
If I understand his statement correctly, James (who is opposed to the DH) argues that there is more of a difference of opinion, not less, in the American League as to when you should bunt. Therefore, there is more strategy vis-a-vis bunting in the AL. It’s an interesting take, but very limited in scope. There are obviously many other variables to be considered when not using a DH besides when to bunt (e.g., when to remove a pitcher, double switch, etc.).
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I'd argue that there's more strategy in pulling your pitcher and using a double switch in the middle of a game than there is deciding on your DH before the game begins.
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by dan on Jan 23, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Just because experts agree doesn't mean there's no strategy.
If you gave 100,000 investment experts the chance to buy 100 shares of Google stock for a penny right now, all of them would do it. If you changed the price to a trillion dollars, none of them would do it. Everyone agrees because it’s sound strategy. But what if the price was 584,690? Hm. At market price, not everyone would make the same decision.
Where’s the “market price” example in your scenario? Where’s the pitcher who has thrown 89 pitches through 6 innings in 100-degree heat? Where’s the pitcher who has battled through 4 innings without his best stuff giving up only 2 runs, on the day before the team starts a division series, with the manager hoping to protect the bullpen? Just because you can pick out 2 situations where most people agree, you can’t claim that there’s no strategy ever.
by CJK on Jan 23, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Those two situations
are probably the most common though. They probably come up most every game, which is why I chose them. And there’s little or no doubt what the “strategy” is in those two situations. We can make up all kinds of “what if the ball bounced into the pocket of a passing marsupial” outlier situations where Tony LaRussa would just change pitchers again and bring in his kangaroogy, but how often are you gonna see that?
By the by, I didn’t say there’s no strategy EVER, just in whether the manager chooses to bunt or pinch hit. There are still a lot of decisions to be made about, say, who to pinch hit with, and whether to double-switch, and which reliever to bring in, and stuff like that. But AL managers have to decide whether to pinch hit too, and which reliever to bring in, and who the DH should be that day, an on-base guy or a power guy, and where should he bat in the lineup, and who should it be when we break camp … It’s not like the DH eliminated decision-making, it just eliminated some of the automatic ones.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
I’m still laughing at LaRussa’s kangaroogy.
I like your point too, but that joke needs more attention.
by Salyn on Jan 23, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think ti’s strategy, as much as it is having to use the bench every game.
by Broccoman on Jan 23, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
That bunt in the 2nd inning isn’t necessarily the right call. And making up statistics (99.9%) and then couching them in hypotheticals (if) is kind of a shady rhetorical strategy. There’s a much larger set of scenarios that arise in the NL with its lack of DH, and many of them are not “automatic decisions.”
by Monkeyking42 on Jan 23, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
It's not clear that it hurts AL teams more than NL teams
When AL teams go to NL parks, they’ll usually have to bench one of their hitters or find a place for him to field. But when NL teams go to AL parks, they have to put one of their bench bats in the lineup when the AL team may have an all-bat no-field guy who they signed especially to fill that role. (Offer does not apply to Jim Thome.) Either way the team is playing in a situation that their opponent’s lineup is designed for and theirs’ isn’t. It’s not clear which is the bigger disadvantage.
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by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 23, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
The DH is an abomination.
Remove it.
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by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 23, 2012 11:04 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I know you.
You’re a Pirates fan.You’re just mad because your team has enough trouble finding eight competent hitters, much less a DH.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
J'Accuse!
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by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 23, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Preach it brutha!
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think the DH should apply to both leagues
I do not want to watch people who are awful at hitting, hit. That being said, if the NL embraces the DH, there are going to be some awful designated hitters, particularly in the NL for a few years. It will also extend the earning years of a significant amount of players, for example, Manny Ramirez might actually be a hot commodity if the NL was going to have DH’s this year.
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by Rhubarb on Jan 23, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions
I consider myself an old fashioned fan. I don’t like the DH, I don’t like the three divisions per league setup, and I’m not a huge fan of interleague play. I refrain from using the term “purist” because it’s usually used as a straw man argument. While I don’t like the DH, I think something that should be considered that it is used in high school, college, NBC, and pretty much all the minor leagues. You’ll often hear of an AL pitcher making his “first major league at bat” in interleague games, but there’s also a good chance that the pitcher is making his first competitive at bat since high school. So the DH is a part of baseball at nearly every level, but with that said I still don’t like it. I especially don’t like what it’s become in the major leagues. It seems like the majority of teams simply dump a guy who is unable to play the field and barely able to get on base into the DH role, which considering that its original purpose was to replace a bad hitter with a good one one has to wonder what purpose the DH serves.
All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia
by Veni Vidi Vici on Jan 23, 2012 11:28 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Wait...what?
In 2011 the average hitter posted a .258/.322/.407 line while DHs posted a .263/.327/.424 (the third best of any position group in all 3 categories behind 1B and LF) teams are getting above average offensive production out of the DH slot so how are a majority of teams using it for guys thatl are “barley able to get on base”?
by wetzelcoal on Jan 23, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Correction, 1B and RF.
by wetzelcoal on Jan 23, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Watching pitchers try to hit and round the bases is an abomination.
Matt LaPorta is the bane of my existence.
by USSChoo on Jan 23, 2012 11:30 AM EST reply actions
I find it even more abominable...
…To watch a batting slot occupied by some overstuffed lump who needs to hit the treadmill, or by some creaky veteran who should’ve retired a decade ago.
by Jhimmibhob on Jan 23, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Welcome to baseball
where Bartolo Colon and David Wells are considered “athletes”. That’s baseball for you in general.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jan 23, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Some pitchers are really good at it though.
by Broccoman on Jan 23, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Not very many.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
But it’s really cool when you find one that can.
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by scout6 on Jan 23, 2012 10:19 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well
Its actually pretty fun watching pitchers run bases and completely whiffing on pitches.
by sag969 on Jan 23, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
If the NL insists on pitchers hitting
then pitchers should actually practice hitting. It’s ridiculous that pitchers go through the minors only rarely having a chance to hit, then expect them to have more PA in one season then they have had their entire professional careers. It’s pathetic to watch a major league player bat and realistically wonder if a high school player, or at least a minor league player who probably isn’t actually good enough to hit at the major league level, or even high minors, could do a better job than them. That’s what happens with pitchers. Aside from a few rare pitcher, most look absolutely lost at the plate. To send what is essentially an automatic out up there two or three times a game when there are better alternatives seems somewhat ridiculous.
I’m not arguing whether the DH should be in both leagues, only the AL, or neither, just that if pitchers are going to bat that they should be required to actually take their job serious and practice. If it’s decided that’s too much of a risk to a pitcher’s health or effects what they’re paid for, pitching, in a negative way, then introduce the DH to the NL. Maybe then we won’t have to watch players who are absolutely lost at the plate, many of which don’t even put much effort into hitting. If a pitcher isn’t going to make an effort to be a decent hitter, or try to really hit at all, then let more deserving players take that role.
by sewf on Jan 23, 2012 11:33 AM EST reply actions
In 3-game interleague series
the middle game should be played according to the visiting league’s rules. Let fans see up-close how the other half lives, and make the discrepancy less of a hardship. Maybe that could help ease a transition to uniform rules.
by steel sox on Jan 23, 2012 11:37 AM EST reply actions
Interesting idea.
The idea of having pitchers bat in AL parks and the DH used in NL parks has been floated. That would also help transition.
I note that as of the time of this comment (10:40 am CST Monday), 84% of voters in the poll said there should be uniform rules (whether all DH or all NOT DH). Only 16% said “keep it the way it is”.
With Bud Selig’s usual attention paid to fans, and speed with which he works, this should be accomplished in about 50 years.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with this logic
is that he may be reaching the least objectionable outcome. It may be very few people’s 1st choice to have leagues with different rules, but there may be fans that prefer the split rules to the elimination of the DH in the AL or the acceptance of the DH in the NL.
An argument could very easily be made that Bud is simply trying to let everyone have their preference (DH or no DH). From your article, I would guess that your preferences on this issue would be in order
1. AL and NL have pitchers hit
2. Everyone use the DH
3. Keep the way things are.
My preferences are
1. Everyone use the DH
2. Keep things the way they are
3. AL and NL have pitchers hit.
If I were Bud, I would want to know if fans preferred keeping things the way things are to their 3rd choice. I haven’t heard a great clamoring to change the rules, but I would bet that Bud would get a backlash if he went one way or the other. I wouldn’t do that if I were him.
I also think fans actually simply like arguing about whether or not the DH is good for the game and Bud may not want to take that away from them.
by jco on Jan 23, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is an eloquent Idea.
Personally, I would like to see the DH done away with in the minor leagues. Perhaps the bat would not be such a foreign object for these Al pitchers.
The Idea that the AL gets the worst of this is not completely true.
I am pretty sure NL teams get less production out of the DH spot because of roster construction.
by Eastwindquinn on Jan 23, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Nice article, Al.
I’ve long thought that if you’re a “baseball player,” you should have to play the game of baseball in each and every sense of the phrase. That means that pitchers hit, or they have to be pinch hit for. They’re players, too, and the rules of the game still dictate that managers can even do such things as swap their RF with their P mid-inning. It’s part of the game.
The fact that DH production has dipped to the point where it’s not even close to being the top “position” by OPS league-wide further dictates that it’s losing its relevance. Beyond David Ortiz (who is 36), is there really any other available player who teams would fight over to add to their lineup…or rather, are teams simply HAVING to add a player just because there’s a position that has to bat 4 times a game that they need to fill?
The one qualm I have with your proposal, however, is the quick 1 year change. Due to draft strategies, existing contracts, and the nature of team’s org charts, I feel like this is something that would have to be phased out rather than instituted immediately. Say, perhaps, the DH will be no more beginning in 2015…this would keep the Royals from revolting (given the money and contract length they just committed to Billy Butler), and would at least give a decent amount of time for teams to figure out what to do with already drafted players that don’t really have a defined position.
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by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 23, 2012 11:56 AM EST reply actions
It's true that a one-year change would be pretty unsettling
… to GM’s who have constructed rosters based on the DH, if they’re getting rid of it.
Maybe a roster expansion to 26 players in that case?
If you’re ADDING the DH to the NL, you’d have no such issue.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
It's interesting to think of it from the MLBPA perspective.
The union is obviously out there to protect and project as many jobs as possible at the MLB level…so I wonder, would there be more available jobs if they eliminated the DH and there was more of a necessity for LIDR’s and PH specialists, or would adding 16 permanent DH spots to the current NL teams create more jobs? I don’t know…
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 23, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
.
Does that mean hitters have to pitch too?
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
by mikecws91 on Jan 23, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mike, you're reading my mind.
Make the second baseman pitch the seventh inning in every game!
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by extavernmouse on Jan 23, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
No more than it means shortstops have to catch or the third base coach has to do the play-by-play. Stop using straw-men.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just saying hitters are hitters and pitchers are pitchers.
It doesn’t seem fair to make a pitcher do a hitter’s job if we aren’t going to make a hitter do a pitcher’s job.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
by mikecws91 on Jan 24, 2012 4:41 AM EST up reply actions
Pitchers are also known as fielders. And fielders hit.
by Phrozen on Jan 24, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
There's another option
Add two more teams so both leagues have 16 teams and get rid of interleague play. Yes, each league would then have one division with six teams, but that never bothered me all that much. If that must be remedied, then ditch divisional play altogether and just let the top four teams into the playoffs.
by chapman_123 on Jan 23, 2012 12:00 PM EST reply actions
Get rid of divisions?
How you gonna sell tickets to see a 16th-place team?
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Then we get into the
… where do you put these teams argument.
Also, no one’s going to want a 16-team league. Who wants to finish 16th?
If you have 16-team leagues, you can have four divisions of four and let the division champions in, plus one wild card.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Boise and New Orleans!
New markets!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 23, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Boise!
We need major league baseball here.
All we have now is the Low-A affiliate of the Cubs.
by GBSimons on Jan 23, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
We have a 16-team league now, for another season at least.
If we have to have divisions, I’d rather go back to two divisions in each league, and let the top two from each division into the playoffs. Of course we’re adding a second wild card this year, so Bud would probably want to include that too.
I don’t like the notion, however, that finishing with the best record out of four marks you as one of the best teams in the league, worthy of the playoffs. I’m also sick of watching the Cubs play the Pirates 48 times every season. I’m okay with the divisional alignment we have now, but I’d rather play a balanced schedule.
As for finishing 16th — someone already does. The fact that we have divisions doesn’t blind anyone to the fact that one team is going to be the worst in the league.
If I have to choose one or the other for DH, then I say dump it. If an all-glove-no-stick shortstop has to bat and a catcher has to bat, then a pitcher should have to bat too.
by chapman_123 on Jan 23, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, someone has the 16th-worst record in the NL.
But they don’t have to market themselves as a 16th-place team.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
“Houston Astros: We’re 6th out of 6, which isn’t so bad when you think about it. So come watch us play.”
by chapman_123 on Jan 23, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
“Houston Astros: We’re 6th! Which is 10 steps closer to first place than if we were 16th!”
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Cha’ ching.
by chapman_123 on Jan 23, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
"As for finishing 16th -- someone already does"
Shhhh. All pro sports with divisions don’t want the fans to think that.
A digression:
Don’t look at it from the bottom, look at it from the top: Every year, six teams’ fans think they “won” something by finishing first in a division, but only TWO of them are the best team (record-wise) in the league, right? And there are people who believe that the team(s) that get the wild card have “won” something. (I’ve seen it written that way, Team X “won the wild card.”)
Divisions and wild cards and all that are intended to obscure the hopelessness of the fact that only one team out of 30 can actually win a championship. If championships were equally distributed, every team would win a championship once every 30 years. But WS titles are, obviously, not equally distributed. Every second, third, fourth etc. title a team wins in one 30-year period bumps as many other teams back into the next 30-year period. And in the next 30-year period there will inevitably be teams that win two, three, four or more titles, bumping other teams back into the NEXT 30-year period …
You see what I’m saying? Then 100 years from now there will be lots of teams like the Cubs who haven’t won a championship in 60, 70, 80 or more years. It’s just math. And many of those teams will not have fan bases as dedicated (or stupid, whichever) as the Cubs do.
So you HAVE to have enough pseudo-championships to hand out the keep fans of the Astros and Mariners even remotely interested, because if fans REALLY thought about how impossible it is to win a championship, they’d probably pretty much stop coming to games and the franchises would collapse. And TV and its whore MLB can’t have that.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t propose we get rid of playoffs though. Just the divisions.
by chapman_123 on Jan 24, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
This is where I think the NFL got it right
If there were to be 16 teams in each league, completely emulate the NFL with 4 divisions in each league and a 12 team playoff system. Since they’re already planning on extending the wild card to another team, why not just have four, one-game (or four quick turn around 3 game series) rounds for the 4 lowest seeds in each league? One of the main complaints has been the best teams getting knocked out early by “lesser” teams. This would give a lot of motivation to continue winning down the stretch. Yes, this would eliminate the one game playoff for ties, but I think baseball is the most honest sport when it comes to statistical tie breakers since they have 162 games worth of stats to go off of.
by omgimbrian on Jan 23, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
correction
a round of four, one-game series
by omgimbrian on Jan 23, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Al, I really like your writing, here and elsewhere.
But this logic stinks. Just because the leagues are equal in size doesn’t mean they should have identical rules. During a given game, both teams use the same ruleset, and that’s enough.
If you’re desperate enough, drop the DH entirely, but there’s no reason to add it to the NL.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
well, they don't have the same ruleset even beyond the DH issue.
Park dimensions are totally different, and so are payrolls.
If a team had to play the same number of interleague games as they did intraleague games, it would be a moot point, but the fact that those numbers are different begat this argument.
I wouldn’t mind them having completely different rulesets if they didn’t have to ever play one another…but they do.
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 23, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
How is that fair?
How is it not fair? If teams have the same number of inter-league games, it does not matter make it more or less fair for the Red Sox to have to play real baseball at the end of the season, rather than sometime if May.
What a lot of baseball fans (and self-described “experts”) seem to forget is that a Win in April counts as much as a Win in September. There are no “meaningless games” in a baseball season, all 162 count.
That being said, if “fairness” is the justification for eliminating the DH, then I am all for it.
by Jigokusabre on Jan 23, 2012 12:19 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
If the Boston-Philly argument were valid, a team in the AL West now could complain that their last six games were against the Yankees and Red Sox while their rivals in the division race got to play against the Orioles and Royals.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
by mikecws91 on Jan 23, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
That's not quite the converse argument.
The converse would be the Nationals getting to play the A’s and use the DH, while the Braves and Phillies play NL teams and have to have their pitchers bat.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Sure,
but it’s along a similar vein of facing a greater disadvantage at the end of the season than at the beginning. The schedule’s always going to be more difficult at certain times than at others, so the team with the tougher September schedule just has to do better in April-August.
"That baseball is the smartest thing out on that field." —Hawk Harrelson
by mikecws91 on Jan 23, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
As I said, part of the reason for the 15-team leagues is to reduce perceived unfairness of the schedule.
Having the same rule in both leagues (DH or not) would also help reduce unfairness.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
As would a salary cap or uniform park dimensions or not playing in Colorado or manadatory steroid injections for all.
Life isn’t fair. Neither is baseball.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't mean it can't be made MORE fair than it is now.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
You slid fast here
Salary Cap – I can understand that
Uniform park dimensions – park dimensions are not the only factor that contributes to scoring and the results can vary from year to year. see Bill James Handbook.
Not playing in Colorado – Colorado altitude has not proven to be a significant advantage to the Rockies or disadvantage to visiting teams.
manadatory steroid injectins – you went off the deep end here.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
The point is that different teams will continue to play by different “rules,” even if the DH is expanded.
Payroll and park factors certainly do help some teams more than others. An outfield designed for Fenway Park will fare somewhat poorly in Petco, for example.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
The DH in both leagues
Allows for normalized play from game to game and conforms with all other in-game rules for both the AL and NL – outs, strikes, balls, Home Run or Foul ball, etc.
The examples you provided are all extraneous to the rules of baseball. Some have always existed and some are fairly new. But all of them are secondary to the rules of baseball and play of the game.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Payroll and the dimensions of the park are “extraneous to the rules of the game?” Really?
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
For the actual Rules of the Baseball - Yes
Designated Hitter = Rule 6.10
Payroll, Salary, Salary Cap = Not in the rules
Park factors = Not in the rules
The DH is currently only applicable to the AL. And not the NL.
Payroll size and Park factors are both issues that are currently in effect for both the AL and the NL. Neither issue is prejudice to one league over the other.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So is the luxury tax and revenue sharing strictly voluntary?
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Well, let's see
Is the luxury tax and revenue sharing strictly voluntary = No
Is the luxury tax and revenue sharing applicable to only the AL = No
Is the luxury tax and revenue sharing applicable to only the NL = No
So what’s your point?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
From six posts ago:
No, they have nothing to do with leagues, but if you’re striving to have everyone play by the same rules, you’ve got a long way to go.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball is very fractured on the ownership side
Team broadcast contracts vs. MLB, no salary cap/floor – this they can improve on.
Park Factors – don’t touch them. Individuality is good.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, I thought all teams had to play by the same rules?
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
There are minimum standards for any new ballpark
Check the MLB rules. Rule 1.04. Rules do not preclude differences.
Let me put an end to this.
I believe that the DH – or no DH – in both league would be preferable especially given the spread of interleague play from a small portion of the season to an everyday occurrence.
You believe that numerous other out-of-game factors need to be addressed for true equality among all teams.
Great, let me know when all those things happen.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 24, 2012 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t want “true equality among all teams.” I’m saying that to use equality as an argument for the DH is flawed.
by Phrozen on Jan 24, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps you should have Al Yellon explain the
concept of hyperbole to you.
by South Side Expat on Jan 23, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps after your presentation on trolling?
by bdlugz on Jan 23, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That post is the worst thing ever.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
How to Improve your Trolling
A standing room only seminar at sox-fest this weekend.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 23, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The point is...
Fairness is the same number of games using the DH or not. Whether that be 0-162 or 45-117 or 81-81 it doesn’t matter.
It does not matter if you have to play all the DH games in the first or month or the last month or somewhere in between because it’s the same number of games and the games have the same impact on the standings.
by Jigokusabre on Jan 24, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
I love Tom Kelly!
Talking about the “strategy” surrounding pitchers in the National League, he said, “Oh, yeah. Rocket science.”
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 23, 2012 12:28 PM EST reply actions
So does his mother...
…so there’s 2 people who do.
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'd stop watching "baseball" entirely if the NL adopted the DH
by kevintheoman on Jan 23, 2012 12:59 PM EST reply actions
My opinion
I think the lack of a DH has value, because it forces bench players to play more.
I may not be paying to watch say, Tommy Hanson hit, though it’s great comedy, but I like seeing the 24th man on the roster try to come up big.
I feel like with AL teams that they can get away with having less of a bench, they’re mostly needed for defense/situational situations.
The Braves would really be helped by a DH though.
I think we should give the union an option
DH’s or 28-man rosters with 3 scratches every night (the other starters)
see what the rank and file prefers.
I do think there should be a universal rule, I’m ok with it either way.
by Broccoman on Jan 23, 2012 1:29 PM EST reply actions
There's an easy solution to this
1. Adopt the DH in the NL
2. Expand rosters to 27 players
3. Anytime a pitcher is replaced, you must also replace the DH. The rules are very basic. Example: Beckett is the starting pitcher for the Red Sox, and Ortiz is the starting DH. When Beckett is pulled from the game, Ortiz’s spot in the lineup must also be replaced. In other words, a DH represents one pitcher per game. If a manager uses three pitchers in one half inning, he doesn’t need to replace the DH three times, just whenever to spot comes up.
This preserves the strategies that NL fans enjoy, and keeps pitchers from embarassing themselves at the plate, which AL fans enjoy.
by scatterbrian on Jan 23, 2012 1:30 PM EST reply actions
That’s weird. I have weird ideas, but not that weird.
Makes about as much sense as a 10-man batting lineup with DH and pitcher.
by Broccoman on Jan 23, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
It's really not that weird, and not difficult
If a manager wants to pull his starter in the 6th, he also has to weigh taking his starting DH out of the lineup. Pitching changes are still predicated on the lineup.
by scatterbrian on Jan 23, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting idea.
Probably way too clever for Bud and his minions, though.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I heard this idea years ago...
and really like it. it makes sense to me. It treats the pitcher/DH as one player – remove the pitcher and you also remove his DH. Run out of DHs and your pitcher needs to bat. What I see happening then is just as their are relief pitchers, there would be a new group of “relief DHs” (OK, so currently, we call them pinch hitters) who would specifically be kept around to hit at the end of the game.
So here’s some extra strategy for you: do you put in you big power hitter as DH at the beginning of the game when your pitcher is in the middle of a slump and not likely to go more than 5 innings, or do you save him for later in the game? No matter what the rule is, there will always be strategy involved in how to best manage any given situation. However, the reality is that the Players Union will never give up the DH, so the only real options are – both leagues use it or, keep it the way it is. Eliminating the DH entirely isn’t going to happen.
by DragonsDream on Jan 24, 2012 6:15 AM EST up reply actions
i think they should switch for 40 years, and then reasses at the end of that time
that way both leagues will have had equal experience with the DH.
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by papality on Jan 23, 2012 1:40 PM EST reply actions
Best idea I've heard yet!
But seroiusly, why do the two leagues need to be normalized? The differences between the 2 leagues and the different styles of play is what makes MLB great.
If both leagues adopted the same rules than there would be no reason to have a separate AL and NL. At that point you might as well just realign the whole league geographically, and trash all the tradition.
The NL is for baseball purists and the AL is for people who like more scoring. It’s perfect how it is.
by Persi W on Jan 23, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
"Just realign the whole league geographically"
I’d be OK with that. Just like I’m OK with night games, and black guys being allowed to play, and having nice new stadiums, and domes, and all that other nontraditional stuff.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not a traditonalist. Some traditions are worth keeping, others aren't. I love all those changes you mentioned. I want the extra Wild Card and I want replay. But full geographical realignment would be a disaster.
I like that there is 2 different leagues that play 2 different styles of baseball. Some like one style, some like the other. I think both are interesting, and am happy keeping both.
by Persi W on Jan 23, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I have a love/hate relationship with the DH
I’m a braves fan, so obviously biased towards not having a DH. I mean, how great is it to force a manager to actually make some choices in a baseball game? Managers having to decide whether to take out their pitchers in favor of a pinch hitter is pretty good drama.
At the same time, there’s nothing more frustrating than watching a big inning (i.e. in the 2nd or 3rd innings early in the game) stifled because the pitcher comes up to bat and grounds into a double play. Manager obviously can’t pull the starting pitcher out that early and any hitter on the roster would likely do more than the pitcher.
by sag969 on Jan 23, 2012 3:01 PM EST reply actions
The price of consistency is a 10-player batting order.
AL – keep the DH and have the pitcher hit too.
NL – keep pitcher’s spot in batting order and add DH.
In effect, the DH becomes an EH (extra hitter). I consider myself a purist, but I think I could live with this. Better than forcing the DH rule, as currently implemented, on the NL.
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by ballhawk on Jan 23, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions
You just wait a minute...
We can’t have logical compromise here. This all about a 40 year old argument.
by lambert58 on Jan 23, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
sorry about that...
(hangs head in shame and shuffles away)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 23, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with that solution
is that the issue is that pitchers can’t hit. NL fans like that and AL fans hate that. American League fans don’t love their DHs, they hate seeing their pitcher hit. So that’s no compromise at all.
On top of that, that would mean taking 1/9 of the ABs away from Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera and giving it to a pitcher.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 23, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
So your argument for the DH is based on your presumption that NL’ers dislike the DH because they like watching pitchers who can’t hit? You might want to go back to the top and start reading again. You missed quite a bit of the “No DH” argument. Also your math is more than a little off.
by lambert58 on Jan 24, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Voting update
At 3:40 pm CST (Monday), 83% of voters in the poll wanted to have the same rule in both leagues (either DH in both, or no DH at all).
That was kind of my point… got to standardize the rules, since realignment’s purpose (or one of the main purposes) is to standardize schedules, divisions, etc.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 23, 2012 4:41 PM EST reply actions
But
How many of the voters prefer consistency over their own preference? This poll doesn’t answer the question you claim it does. In order to make the point you are trying to make, you would need to ask the question:
Should the American and National Leagues have uniform rules with respect to the Designated Hitter, even if it means that your preference (to play with a DH or without a DH) is sacrificed?
I doubt that most “Baseball Purists (people who don’t like the DH)” would think it would be better if there were a DH in the National League simply because they think the rules should be uniform. Likewise, there are probably a bunch of people who don’t want the DH to go in the AL just so the rules will be uniform.
by jco on Jan 23, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Alternatively, you could note that 57% of voters are opposed to having the DH in the NL, one way or another.
by Phrozen on Jan 23, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
Likewise, using the same logic, 56% of voters are opposed to having pitchers hit in the AL.
In order to find out if Yellon is accurate, he should really ask two questions:
1. Would you support a move by the American League to eliminate the DH?
2. Would you support a move by the National League to adopt the DH?
If Yellon is correct, then the answer to both questions would be yes. He might be right, but I’m certain that nowhere near 83% of voters would vote yes on either question.
by jco on Jan 23, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
And it's tied
41% for no DH and 42% for the DH.
Hence the problem.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 23, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'd perfer alignment becuase...
The DH is horsecrap and should never have been implemented. I would much rather see the status quo than have the DH pollute the National League.
by Jigokusabre on Jan 24, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I am accepting there will be uniform rules eventually.
While I wish they would abolish the DH, the union will never allow the removal of the DH rule because it’s a tool for prolonging players’ careers.
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