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The 49-year-old lefthander is hoping for one more comeback in 2012, with the Rockies. Does his entire body of work rate him consideration for Cooperstown?
Jan 17, 2012 - In the recent balloting for this year's Baseball Hall of Fame inductions, former Tigers, Twins and Blue Jays pitcher Jack Morris' vote total increased to 382, 66 percent of the ballots cast, in his 13th season of eligibility. He fell short of election by 48 votes.
Many voters insist that Morris deserves Hall induction; they claim his relatively high career ERA (3.90) is because he "pitched to the score"; in other words, when his team was scoring a lot of runs, he figured he could give up almost as many. (Personally, I think that's utter nonsense.) I don't think Morris is Hall-worthy; if the voters would simply admit they're essentially voting for him because he pitched one fantastic game in the 1991 World Series, at least they'd be honest with us.
Because if you're going to admit Jack Morris to the Hall of Fame, you probably have to at least consider voting for Jamie Moyer, who appears likely to pitch in his 25th major league season in 2012 with the Colorado Rockies.
Moyer? Really?
Yes, really. If you look at their numbers, these two men who share the same initials are actually quite similar.
Some of the nay-sayers will remind me that Moyer is the career leader in home runs allowed, with 511. The correct response is: "You have to be good to do that." The rest of the top 10 on that list are: Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Frank Tanana, Warren Spahn, Bert Blyleven, Tim Wakefield and Steve Carlton. That's seven Hall of Famers and a couple of other pretty good pitchers.
I'm kidding here ... sort of. Jamie Moyer's Hall of Fame credentials consist primarily of sticking around for a really long time and finding himself on several very good teams (the Mariners from 2000-03 when they won 90+ games each year, or the recent incarnations of the Phillies). He has received Cy Young votes only three times and made just one All-Star team. Early in his career, he was unconditionally released three times (by the Cubs, Cardinals and Rangers) before finally settling in and pitching solidly, if unspectacularly, for two decades.
And yet, there is value in that. A decade after most pitchers would have hung it up, Moyer had Tommy John surgery and is planning a comeback. He's 103-79 with a 4.40 ERA (99 ERA+) and 1.33 WHIP in 1497⅔ innings since he turned 40. Only Niekro pitched more successfully after age 40; Moyer's post-age-40 numbers stack up well against Hall members such as Spahn and Gaylord Perry and future inductees Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson.
In Moyer's case, longevity is one of his qualifications. He is unique in baseball history in being able to be an effective back-of-the-rotation starter into his late 40s. He'll be 50 in November; no one has ever been able to do what he's trying to do at his age.
In some ways, therefore, Moyer is more qualified than Morris -- who did not pitch a single major-league inning after the age of 40 -- to be a Hall of Famer. If you're considering Morris, you've got to consider Moyer -- and maybe give the latter the nod.
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I saw an amazing, interesting and utterly worthless fact about Jaime Moyer yesterday...
He hit two sac flies in his career. In between those two sac flies, Craig Biggio played his entire 20 year career.
by Dave Pomerantz on Jan 17, 2012 11:28 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
One of my favorite facts of all time.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I vote "no" and he's not as good as Morris, who isn't a Hall of Famer himself.
With that said, I’m rooting for Moyer and hope to see him reach 300 wins. The “wins” stat will be devalued (as it should be) and Moyer will be remembered as a valuable, durable pitcher; even if he doesn’t make it into the Hall (though if he reaches 300 wins, he just might!). It’s a win-win! Good luck, Jamie!
"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.
by Ride the Apocalypse on Jan 17, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions
I'd love to see it too
But 300 wins is probably unrealistic. 33 wins is at least 3 years and more likely 4 for Jaime at this point. I don’t see him pitching till he’s 53.
by Dave Pomerantz on Jan 17, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Four years ago, could you have seen him pitch till he was 49?
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I started beating this drum six or seven years ago.
I had made up a list suggesting that at the time we might be seeing as many as nine active HoF pitchers, and I included Jamie. The others, IIRC, were Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Johnson, Mussina, Pettitte, Clemens and Schilling).
I don’t give much credence to wins, but I do give a lot of credence to winning percentage. Up until age 33, Jamie was (if I did the math right) 59-76. Since then, in a span of years longer than most HoFers’, Jamie is 208-128.
It would be nice to see him go in, just because it’s a good story, otherwise I pretty much agree with Ride the Apocalypse.
by bucdaddy on Jan 17, 2012 11:43 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Oops,
meant active HoF starters. No. 10 would be Rivera.
by bucdaddy on Jan 17, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
I read the paragraph about him being released three times and thought, “Wait, I’m pretty sure the Cubs sent him to the Rangers in the Mitch Williams trade.” I didn’t realize he’d come back to the Cubs in 1992, I assume for spring training. In retrospect, Moyer probably wouldn’t have been worse than Danny Jackson or Shawn Boskie. Moyer pitched for the Mud Hens that year (quite well, as it turns out).
by chapman_123 on Jan 17, 2012 12:01 PM EST reply actions
Story about Moyer and the Cubs in 1992.
He was in spring training with the team that year — had not yet turned 30. He had a mediocre spring and management called him in and offered him a minor league coaching position. He turned it down, saying “I think I can still pitch.”
20 years later, still pitching.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
On no planet is Jamie Moyer a hall of famer
At merely 49 WAR – accumulated over about 800 years of service time – an ERA of 4.24 and an xFIP of 4.65, this guy isn’t even close to being one of the greatest pitchers of all time – my very generalized standard for hall of fame pitchers.
And he wasn’t nearly as good as Morris. Morris had a FIP of nearly a half run lower.
by aronofsky40 on Jan 17, 2012 12:23 PM EST reply actions
It's not the Hall of Statistics.
It’s the Hall of Fame. There’s something to be said for doing what Moyer has done in his career, and might continue to do.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
first-ballot Hall of Amazing
As Rob has pointed out.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 17, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on no planet is Moyer a HOFer. However neither is Morris. Your comment about ERA and xFIPs between the two is misguided though.
Their careers don’t exist in a vacuum with identical obstacles. You have to remember that Morris played in an era with lesser offensive output wheras Moyer played primarily in an era known for cartoonish offensive numbers.
End of the day, when you look at the ERA+ for each of them… its 105 to 104 in favor of Morris.
by Chewy59 on Jan 17, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Needs 2 more seasons
I’m pretty sure he’s a yes for me, but say he pitches at age 50 and finishes with 280+ wins, I’d say he then definitely deserves recognition as a unique and amazing part of the history of baseball. He was never the most talented or successful pitcher any given year, but his prolonged durabilty and value are extraordinary. HOF, but then, I’d also put Murphy, Maris, and Trammell in.
by Jorio on Jan 17, 2012 12:45 PM EST reply actions
Maris?
No. Apart from the two MVP seasons he was mediocre.
Murphy? Too short a peak.
Trammell? Maybe.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
You know who else had too short a peak?
Sandy Koufax. Five years of greatness, one year of very goodness and the rest meh. And keep in mind, his five years of greatness came in a pitcher’s ballpark in the second deadball era. And nobody ever suggests Sandy Koufax isn’t a deserving HoFer.
So, Al, define “Too short a peak” for us.
by bucdaddy on Jan 18, 2012 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
Too short...
meaning was brilliant and then fell off a cliff in terms of performance. Koufax was just brilliant until he was gone. You don’t make any points bringing him up. Puckett, maybe.
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@JamesDaBear
by jameslcrockett on Jan 18, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
So Koufax
never had a decline phase (well, I guess quitting because of health reasons is a very very very quick decline phase), but I mean he retired not long before the rules were about to change and go back (somewhat) to the conditions that existed before he became a monster. He’d still have Dodger Stadium working for him, but he’d probably have looked a little more human. But we’ll never see that part.
I’m not saying it’s his fault or anything. I know the guy pitched in excruciating pain. I know a lot of other people pitched under somewhat similar conditions and most of them didn’t put up numbers like his. His peak was a hell of a peak. Just that it was five years, which even for a peak is a short peak.
Yeah, Kirby Puckett seems comparable in that regard, but Puckett also played every day, vs. Koufax playing once every four days, so I’m not really sure who I’d rather have. I count about a six-season peak for Murphy.
by bucdaddy on Jan 19, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Morris had four postseasons
1984 and 1987 with the Tigers, 1991 with the Twins, 1992 with the Blue Jays. Three rings out of those.
by HawkeyeEdward on Jan 17, 2012 1:30 PM EST reply actions
Whoops.
You are correct. I forgot about 1987.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
He is...
…if Julio Franco is.
by Seam on Jan 17, 2012 2:06 PM EST reply actions
You can make an argument for Franco.
Not a great argument, but an argument.
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by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
It's the same case
Long career, never the best player on his team let alone the league, all value resides in his longevity. Hall of determination and perserverance, not Hall of Fame.
by Seam on Jan 17, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions
I love Jamie Moyer.
Especially as a Mariners fan. But the HoF? Maybe, just maybe, but only if Edgar is first.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 17, 2012 3:53 PM EST reply actions
His other credentials include...
having high character and setting a great example for MLB and doing a lot of good for the communities in which he played in an era where players were constantly caught cheating and making other spectacles of themselves.
Moyer is not superior or equal to Morris. It doesn’t have to be a both, either, or neither discussion. If Jamie Moyer gets to 300 wins with his story behind him, he should be in the Hall of Fame. Nothing short of that though. I wish the Mariners would have taken a chance on him instead of signing Iwakuma, but if he has to give it a go with Colorado, then so be it.
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@JamesDaBear
by jameslcrockett on Jan 17, 2012 6:02 PM EST reply actions
It kinda does.
Unless we’re putting them in Schrodinger’s Box of Fame.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 17, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just saying the two don't have to be discussed in the same breath at all.
Just because one doesn’t, doesn’t mean neither does. Just because one makes it, doesn’t mean the other has to. The two have completely different arguments for making the Hall of Fame.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 17, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with you on that,
which as I’ve noted is one of the problems with the HoF voting system as now constructed. It forces Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens and Craig Biggio and Mike Piazza et al to compete against each other for votes, which is absurd. Each player should be voted on based on his own merits, not in a group that pointlessly splits votes in a dozen directions. I’m really rooting for no one to get in for the next five years so this will become obvious to everyone.
by bucdaddy on Jan 19, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
It only forces them to compete...
because voters constantly refuse to acknowledge the breadth of quality candidates. As teams have expanded as well as our knowledge and evaluative ability, it should become increasingly difficult to only fill ballots half way, yet many are still advocating that. Next year, there should be absolutely no excuse. Maybe they’d have to raise the bar to 80%, but I’ve long advocated they should require full ballots for last couple years and going forward to clear out the log jam of quality holdovers and get ready for the deluge of the 90s players, who are talented for any era and deserving.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 19, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
He would get my vote
But Morris doesn’t. I think his longevity makes him hall-worthy.
by hotwater2 on Jan 17, 2012 7:22 PM EST reply actions
How do we get this done?
I’m simply not a fangirl over many players, but how do we get him in when he retires? We need to petition loudly, right? Let me know what we have to do, I’m in.
I know some pure stat monkeys will disagree, but he really should be in there. Not just because he’s the oldest man in baseball. Not just because he’s a absolute wonderful human being- the kind of non-felon sports hero we should have around to idolize. He has a monster change-up that’ is ART. Moyer on his game is a true delight to watch play. Nothing like a hard hitter throwing his bat down as he gets smoked by a old goat with a 82 MPH change-up. That is something I hope to see for a few more years, just for my own baseball loving selfish reasons.
by sherry.weller on Jan 18, 2012 10:43 AM EST reply actions
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