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Blame MLB And Players Association For Buster Posey's Injury

Giants fans might want to blame Scott Cousins for Buster Posey's devastating injury, but the real fault lies with Major League Baseball and the Players Association, which has done nothing to limit the sort of violence we saw Wednesday night.

May 26, 2011 - As I so often do, this morning I turned to Joe Sheehan, for his take on the truly terrible thing that happened to Buster Posey last night.

(Frankly, I should have written something much earlier than now, but I fell asleep just before it happened, and so I was basically the last baseball writer in America to see the clip and hope for the best but expect the worst.)

Here's Joe, sensible as ever:

I'll reiterate here what I said on Twitter last night: Cousins' play was clean, looking to jar the ball loose from Posey. (Posey, it turns out, never had the ball, but Cousins could not have seen that in time.) He didn't throw an elbow or go high. There is no reason at all to call him out for what happened to Posey. My only criticism of him, and this is independent of what happened, is that his decision to after Posey rather than the plate seemed to have been predetermined. As it turned out, Posey was a bit out of position, in front of and to the first-base side of the plate, which gave Cousins a clear path to the plate from the outside. Had Cousins read Posey's position, he might have slid or dove for home, outside of Posey's reach, and had a better chance of being safe on a clean catch by Posey. The collision did not enhance Cousins' chances of being safe, and in my opinion, took him away from a plate he could have reached more easily.


The majority of catcher injuries on plays at the plate come due to the de facto legalization of obstruction, in which a catcher sets up without the baseball and impedes the runner's progress to home whether the ball is there or not. This was not one of those cases. Posey didn't obstruct, he just got hit while in no position to brace himself for the contact and while in an awkward stance. He got hit cleanly by a runner who was anticipating a tag play.

Not everything has to be a controversy. Posey didn't cheat. Cousins didn't play dirty. It was just a baseball play with an unfortunate outcome. Let's hope we get good news on Posey today: there's no fan allegiance that can make an injury to a young star anything but sad.

Well, we didn't get good news. We didn't get good news, at all.

I can't really disagree with anything that Joe has written here. I think Cousins' play was sorta dirty, except you can't really fault him because what he did is considered perfectly acceptable within the game. If Cody Ross had done exactly the same thing to John Buck, Bruce Bochy would have been thrilled. Not with the injury. But with Ross's effort.

It should be considered a dirty play, though.

And I'm not the only one. From one Buster this morning, we have a perfectly reasonable reaction from another Buster's agent:

Posey's agent, Jeff Berry, said Thursday morning he is going to reach out to Joe Torre, leader of on-field operations for Major League Baseball, and raise the idea of changing the rules regarding plays at the plate.

Over time, it is has become accepted practice for catchers to block home plate, and for baserunners to launch themselves into catchers.

"You leave players way too vulnerable," Berry said. "I can tell you Major League Baseball is less than it was before [Posey's injury]. It's stupid. I don't know if this ends up leading to a rule change, but it should. The guy [at the plate] is too exposed.

"If you go helmet to helmet in the NFL, it's a $100,000 fine, but in baseball, you have a situation in which runners are [slamming into] fielders. It's brutal. It's borderline shocking. It just stinks for baseball. I'm going to call Major League Baseball and put this on the radar. Because it's just wrong."

Of course it's wrong. Baseball was not designed, and is not best played, as a contact sport.

Catchers should not be allowed to block home plate without the ball, and in fact the rules prohibit them from doing exactly that. But the umpires allow them to block the plate -- this is what Joe refers to as "the de facto legalization of obstruction" -- and this leads to a serious injury or two every season.

Runners should not be allowed to devastate catchers. They should not be allowed to devastate catchers who are blocking the plate, and they absolutely should not be allowed to devastate catchers who are not blocking the plate.

Watch the play again. Buster Posey did not have the ball. Buster Posey was not blocking the plate. Scott Cousins had to alter his path to slam into Buster Posey. But you can't really fault Scott Cousins because his behavior has become normal.

It should not be normal, or acceptable. Major League Baseball and the Players Association should get together, after the season if not immediately, and put an end to his unofficially codified insanity.

I would love to know how Joe Torre responds to Jeff Berry's entreaties. Torre's an old Baseball Man, and a catcher at that. He might even be a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist.

On the other hand, Joe Torre seems to possess a bit more sensitivity than your average old-school Baseball Man, and perhaps his innate compassion will move him to consider the plight of the next young catcher whose season -- and perhaps career -- is destroyed because of an utterly indefensible tradition that adds an occasional jolt of excitement but far, far too often robs the sport of incredible talent, with the indefinite loss of a Rookie of the Year only the latest and most saddening example.

Poll
Are collisions like the one Wednesday night that destroyed Buster Posey's season a good and necessary part of the game?
Yes.
592 votes
No. It's time for MLB and the players to do something.
2489 votes

3081 votes | Poll has closed

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Rob Neyer began his career with legendary baseball author Bill James, and later worked for STATS, Inc. and ESPN.com, writing more words for that website than anyone else. Rob has written or... Read full bio


Comments

Display:

Use College rules

In college you must slide feet first into the plate (or 2nd for that matter); no launching or rolling/shoulder blocks allowed. The managers will scream but the players will adjust.
My question is why the outcry now? This happens several times a year where a catcher is disabled because of an injury as a result of this type of play going back to Pete Rose’s infamous takeout of Fosse. Does it make a difference that i’ts an MVP candidate and not a journeyman catcher?

by bobulated on May 26, 2011 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Precisely.

What are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on May 26, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

When it happens to an MVP guy, the spotlight will shine brighter, whether it’s fair or not.

I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down

by woomikee on May 26, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

it shouldn't but it does.

I started protesting this crap about 3 years ago when the same thing happened to the Giants backup catcher, but no one outside of SF cared, because who cares about some backup catcher getting blown up.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. I think its the doubling up of this injury and the loss of a potential ROY last year in Santana that has brought attention and is changing popular opinion.

For myself, I’ve been bothered for years by the seriously un-baseball nature of these hard contact plays at home. Time to get rid of them, Mr Torre.

Co-Founder: Rants Above Replacement (baseball and sports commentary)
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by Patrick_M on May 26, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

if there's going to be a rule change where sliding is necessary on close plays

i don’t think it’d be fair then of a catcher to use his body in blocking the plate.

THE BATMAN
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the entire time."
@Codeeg

by CodyG on May 26, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Easy Rule Change

I think the rule should be that the catcher can’t impede or block the path to the plate and the runner can’t make intentional contact with the catcher. The catcher should stand ‘in front of’ the plate so as to allow the runner clear access. The runner should be able to dive head first if wanted.
I’ve never agreed with blocking bases either. If I’m trying to turn a triple and beat a throw, the 3B shouldn’t be able to crouch and completely block the base. He can place feet on either side of the bag and allow clear access and make the tag.

by RoxFanAZ on May 26, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's like Crosby in Hockey

doesn’t matter that the Penguins did a ton of the same things to other teams, but when a star goes down, others listen.

See also Tom Brady

Self-praise is for losers. Be a winner. Stand for something. Always have class, and be humble.
-John Madden

by Willgfass on May 26, 2011 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, the rule against headshots was instituted because of the Penguins’ Matt Cooke hit on Marc Savard, not the Steckel or Hedman hits on Crosby.

American Heroes: Joe Pavelski, Buster Posey, Charlie Coyle
Fear the Fin - NEEDS MORE DOVES

by mymclife on May 27, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken

Self-praise is for losers. Be a winner. Stand for something. Always have class, and be humble.
-John Madden

by Willgfass on May 27, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

CoachP

Most amatures play with the college rule. This is the Major’s. A guy with the name Gehrig got to play because of an injury. And we see what that produced. A catcher needs to “olay” the runner.

by CoachP44 on May 31, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even though the players involved were unhurt, I thought the Navarro play last night, where basically he slides feet first toward the runner who is also sliding feet first, looked more dangerous than the Posey play.

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by JasonB on May 26, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Plays at the plate ...

… can be exciting without the threat of a catcher getting trucked. This should have been changed a long time ago.

by Tom Ziller on May 26, 2011 12:49 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Lame

Jeff Mathis Batting Average Watch: .202

by ryanfea on May 26, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Stupid

Home plate collisions are just plain senseless. Baseball isn’t a contact sport. The injury risk is way too high and for what? A very small chance that the runner will knock the ball loose? Stupid.

by noxad on May 26, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd for accuracy

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think you need a rule change

As Buster Olney pointed out, there’s already an obstruction rule. If the catcher obstructs the plate, call the runner safe automatically. That solves that problem.

by Adam J. Morris on May 26, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Catchers should not be allowed to block home plate without the ball, and in fact the rules prohibit them from doing exactly that.

I get the sense that blocking the plate is OK when the catcher has the ball?

Folksy literate type.

by birdman on May 26, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct

Some would go so far as calling for that rule to be changed as well, but I wouldn’t.

I think if you enforce the obstruction rule, this sort of thing largely goes away. But perhaps also make a rule that going out of the baseline to collide with a defender will result in the runner being out.

by phatj on May 26, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

except in cases like this

where, for any meaningful definition of “obstructing”, Posey wasn’t obstructing the plate

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i just watched the replay again,

Posey is clearly in front of the plate.

Folksy literate type.

by birdman on May 26, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

and had partial possession of the ball.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, but isn't a cucumber that small called a gherkin?"

by jbg2772 on May 26, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd dispute that

he never caught it

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but Cousins couldn't see that

from what I recall, the ball was either bouncing around Posey’s glove, or obscured at his feet.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, but isn't a cucumber that small called a gherkin?"

by jbg2772 on May 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

And takeout-slides as well...

If anyone remember the play a few weeks ago involving Hanley Ramirez, you’ll know what I’m talking about. We need to change that too. The only difference in that case and this one is that Ramirez ended up not getting seriously hurt, but it seems that one or two middle-infielders end up getting seriously hurt because of the takeout slide every season too. For the traditionalists out there… Let see, you want to HURT someone to make up for the fact that your hitter sucks and hit into a double play. Yeah, that makes SOOOO much sense.

by Phillie697 on May 26, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Takeout slides are different for two reasons:
1) The runner is generally not going full speed right into the defender, as he has to be able to hold the bag;
2) The object isn’t usually to actually run into the player, but to make him jump out of the way to avoid the collision, and in the process disrupt the throw.

by phatj on May 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

takeout slides

are more subjective, but I think if it’s obvious that the runner is sliding with the sole purpose of disrupting the play, it should be interference (ie. sliding well out of the baseline, or going in spikes up)

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, and the egregious cases are (sometimes? usually?) called that way.

by phatj on May 26, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trying to take the legs out from under a fielder in the motion of throwing should be interference, no?

Yet when was the LAST time you saw that being called? So no, I don’t agree the egregious cases are called that way.

It’s one thing to say that they have the right to slide into the bag on the base path, and if the fielder is there, tough. But we’re talking about “takeout” slides, not slides that happen to take out someone. Some of these guys slide in intentionally sweeping their legs trying to take the fielder out aka soccer slide. Guess what, you get a yellow, or worse a red, card in soccer for that.

by Phillie697 on May 26, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nishioka from the Twins got killed on a takeout slide earlier in the year.

Mainly because they do not really do that in Japan. Not sure why it is accetable here.

Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...

by darren004 on May 26, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

As did Justin Morneau, getting a concussion

attempting a “routine takeout slide” last year.
He was out for over half the year and hasn’t recovered yet.

(Granted, that is the least of the twins problems this year…)

by TWinSS on May 27, 2011 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Superstar treatment

I get the feeling that if Dioner Navarro got trucked and broke his ankle we’re not even having this conversation. Why does it take a superstar injury to discuss a rule change? It seems quite reactive. Catchers get plowed every year and we don’t talk about a rule change until now. We’ve all watched baseball before. Why is it ok for the rule to change now and not after collisions that happened last year or the year before?

by count sutton on May 26, 2011 1:31 PM EDT reply actions  

You make a good point...

Except until a superstar gets hurt, there aren’t enough people who notice it to drive the necessary change. This isn’t a scenario of “superstar treatment”; it’s just human nature.

by Phillie697 on May 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

it’s why there’s the “Tom Brady rule” in the NFL. It sucks, but just because people are dumb, and there’s not an uproar until a superstar gets hurt, doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t need to be changed.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree

If MLB wants to make their sport safer, then that’s a good goal. Evaluate current areas in which athletes have the potential for injury and provide rules in the scenarios in which rules can facilitate positive outcomes. My issue is this attitude (and all sports leagues are pretty guilty of this) of waiting for a superstar to get hurt and then taking action on one aspect of the sport.

I just think if safety is a goal, then evaluate how to make the game safer. Don’t wait for injuries and make a rule about one isolated scenario.

by count sutton on May 27, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just part of the game

I hate when people think you need to change rules of a game. This is how the game is played and especially in extra innings when you are going balls to the wall. Posey may have been in front of the plate but who is to say Cousins wasnt anticipating a tag. Its all part of the game plain and simple. Please dont change a 100+ year part of the game. And Joe Torre was a catcher so I dont really see him changing any rules after he has been laid out a few times himself.

by mcneezy on May 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

But why should Cousins get to assault Posey in order to not be tagged? At any other base, if you think you’re going to be out, you don’t try to advance, but for some reason it’s OK at home plate?

by phatj on May 26, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

“These rules were written 100 years ago and we have always followed them. Therefore, there is no need to change them.”
Rebuttal: the society in which the rules were written has changed, and thus those rules may no longer be applicable.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Parts of the game.
Please dont change a 100+ year part of the game

Like not wearing helmets? Not using gloves? Catching the ball on the fly for an out? Employing players who aren’t white? Stealing signs? Spikes-up slides?

All of these at one point or other were “part of the game”. I hate the “part of the game” excuse. I realize this is an organization run by a bunch of hide-bound traditionalists. MLB owners and GMs HATE paying people not to play. Players hate not being able to play. Legislating out a part of the game that unduly puts players at risk (both the runner and the catcher mind you; Hi Josh Hamilton) just makes sense.

Anything else sounds like a “sending a message” hockey GM arguing for the continued existence of players like Matt Cooke.

by talkendo on May 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

amphetamines and steroids weren’t against the rules until quite recently. Amphetamines still aren’t if you get a (relatively easy to get) exemption.

Guess they’re just part of the game

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Steroids..

I deliberately didn’t go there…

by talkendo on May 26, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

"I hate when people think you need to change rules of a game"

You seriously are against all rules changes? Why should we accept that a rule can’t be changed, just because it hasn’t been changed yet—isn’t that a tautology? Plenty of things that were part of the game were changed—batting helmets, spitballs, segregation…

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

x
Please dont change a 100+ year part of the game.

As Bill James pointed out in the Historical Baseball Abstract, this only started occurring in the 40s, and is illegal. It isn’t a 100+ year part of the game.

by Adam J. Morris on May 26, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a 100+ year thing

Not that I expect you to change your mind, but your premise is wrong. These crashes are not a 100-year thing but something that arose in the 1950s and 1960s. I don’t care about Posey or the Giants except that I’d rather see him play than get hurt.

My other question is: Why do teams allow their catchers to do this? Specifically, why don’t they coach the catchers to set up inside the baseline and avoid contact with the baserunner? Buster Posey is probably worth $20 million a season. There’s no single game worth giving up that asset.

by rfs1962 on May 26, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya....reinstitute chop blocks and clotheslines in football

too many pussies play sports

i wanna see blood

i wanna see franchises decimated and careers cut short

and fuck joe torre

he worked for the bums

by bacci40 on May 26, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even more appropriate here...

Enough with that wussy “fair catch” rule on punts. People obviously like to see sitting ducks get annihilated by enormous athletes running full speed.

by keithprime on May 29, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

they changed the rule regarding the bean ball

now, both teams get a warning

ya, it has taken away the brush back….but teams no longer have to worry about losing players as a result of repeated retaliatory beanings

posey was not blocking the plate

cousins wasnt going for the plate…he was head hunting

change the rules

by bacci40 on May 26, 2011 1:46 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Well said, sir.

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

you people are pansies

Have any of you ever played sports? These guys realize the risks, they’re professional athletes, injuries happen, there’s headhunters in high school, college, and the pros, you cant escape them and you can’t change the rules just cause an unfortunate injury happened. It’s sports, relax.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions  

well, high school and college did change the rules

so there’s that.

Also, see above about argument from tradition.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand

You say, “You can’t change the rules just cause an unfortunate injury happened.” Why not? Isn’t that usually why rules are changed—to avoid a negative outcome? A call is blown, people don’t like it, they propose instituting instant replay. Why else would we change the rules except to eliminate something we dislike in the sport?

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Short version:

“Hey, it’s just a game, why are people getting all worked up over dudes getting hospitalized?”

You might want to re-evaluate.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your post just reminded me that approximately 25% of living, breathing humans have an IQ under 85.

Could you describe for us what life is like in that particular club?

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's th' freaking point of a personal attack? What's your goal?

Are you hoping 4 will cry?
Kneel in deference?

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone remember Pete Rose doing this to Ray Fosse in the ASG?

A game that doesnt even matter. If anything would’ve changed with this rule it would’ve been then.

BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

by BigStein on May 26, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Fortunately

I think sports fans have gotten more civilized over the years. (Witness the decline of boxing; the growing concern over NFL injuries; the acceptance of leave for athletes for reasons of family, bereavement, anxiety disorders; etc.) That being the case, I have hope that people will react with revulsion at this injury and prompt a change to the rules.

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

stupid argument

The decline in boxing is due to the rise of MMA, a much more violent sport.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually not

MMA is several orders of magnitude safer than boxing.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

yeah, barely padded fists. Submissions that require you to bring a person’s joints to the point of breaking in order for them to give up, You’re ABSOLUTELY right.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

check the injury record

the barely padded fists actually significantly decrease injury.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude thats asinine, check the injury record? Boxing has been around forever, i’m sure theres more injuries total. You’re out of your mind.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean per capita

really? Gah.

It’s pretty well established that boxing gloves cause SIGNIFICANTLY more and more serious brain injury than MMA gloves.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Physics lesson

I’m gonna get wise with ya. Boxing gloves are bigger than mma gloves, i’d go so far to say that mma gloves are barely larger than the fist of the fighter. Thus you take the same punch with each glove and there going to be more pound per square inch. Kind of the same reason you can lay on a bed of nails, but if you step on a single nail it will go through your foot.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Numbers lesson

How many punches to the head does an MMA fighter take in a fight?

How many punches to the head does a boxer take in a fight?

The MMA punches may be higher quality per punch, but the quantity in boxing dwarfs MMA.

by noxad on May 26, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, the classic "You're dumb" response

When confronted with facts that disagree with your opinion. It’s medical science; MMA doesn’t have as many injuries per capita.

I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down

by woomikee on May 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arguing with a troglodyte accomplishes nothing, though your points are all good ones.

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why I don't read ahead and see that you're feeding at the trough is a point against me.

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

they're not even higher quality per punch

boxing gloves impact with more force, by virtue of weighing more.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm gonna get "physics with ya"

boxing gloves weight significantly more than MMA gloves, and thus hit with more force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRmOOWPTRBs

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh

this whole argument has gotten down to this, fine i agree with your point, about the gloves, but submission, kicking to the head, (The leg is much stronger than the arm), is not allowed in boxing. Thus MMA is more violent.

QED

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

submission

that’s the whole point of tapping out, submitting before getting injured.

There are way fewer concussions in MMA, largely because of the lack of a 10 count.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

in other words

the MMA LOOKS way more violent, but boxing causes much more long term harm.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes that is EXACTLY what we are arguing, “I think sports fans have gotten more civilized over the years. (Witness the decline of boxing; the growing concern over NFL injuries;”

Thank you

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Civilized with regard to the safety of the atheletes?

Why certainly.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

My base argument is that the decline in boxing isnt because people hate violence now, its because of MMA, which i’ll take your words. LOOKS more violent to the CONSUMER

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

but is actually less violent to the athelete

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

LEG……>………… ARM, by "several orders of magnitude

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

MMA is actually a good point

But I hardly think it outweighs the rest of my point, let alone proves that it’s “stupid.”

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall that play.

If it happens a million times, the result is the same but the injury probably isn’t.
I read Neyer’s yammering here and I can’t tell what he thinks is wrong. Freak injuries in sports will forever taint it. You can’t legislate away the unpredictability factor.
A line drive ruined Herb Score’s career. Just sayin’.

I do a lot of stupid shit, but I'm not an idiot. - JCH24

by johnu1 on May 26, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thing is, this is not a ‘freak injury’ at all. This same thing happens probably once every year or two. See Santana last year. The Rose ASG play. The play that ended Buck Martinez’s career.

Co-Founder: Rants Above Replacement (baseball and sports commentary)
rantsabovereplacement.com

by Patrick_M on May 26, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Mark Teixeira

And anything that Nyjer Morgan does.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cousins' play was in the rules but dirty and the replay proves it because...

After the play, Cousins crawls over to make sure he touches home. He never went for the plate. He went for Posey the whole way. Forget all the tradition talk, dirty but legal play diminished another great your catcher’s (Roy Fosse) career and it will diminish Posey’s. The game is not hurt at all by requiring players to slide for the base and not the player. It’s already a rule at second base. Shame on MLB for allowing this happen again.

by Terry Gomes on May 26, 2011 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

He was crawling to check on Posey. He had to be escorted back to the dugout by a teammate.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Benefit of slo-mo instant replay...

We all have the benefit of slo-mo instant replay to rehash and dissect this ad nauseam. This was a split second play and decision to win a game. It wasn’t a cheap shot, it was a clean play. Had he slid in feet first, he’d probably have been tagged out…it’s his job to do everything within his power to legally score the run, and he did just that. It’s part of game. It sure didn’t look to me like Posey was going to turn and gently tag him out. Collisions are part of this game, hell the catchers have all the padding and protective gear!!! what’s next, we put batters in plexiglass booths to prevent them from getting hit by picthes?

by labsr4me on May 26, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

exactly

His intention wasnt to hurt Posey, it was to jar the ball loose, and score the run

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Which is exactly what he did

by labsr4me on May 26, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why Rob says not to blame Cousins

but rather to blame a dangerous and pointless rules mechanism.

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

so much this

What Cousins did was legal. What Cousins did should not be legal in the future.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

This^

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does the padding do to protect their joints? The injuries these collisions cause are in the knees, ankles and shoulders. Those pads are meant to stop a 5 oz ball, not a 200 lb man!

Co-Founder: Rants Above Replacement (baseball and sports commentary)
rantsabovereplacement.com

by Patrick_M on May 26, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

A 200 pound man OH MY, these baseball players are so fragile.

I believe the weightlifting and training he is doing as a PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE is whats meant to stop a 200 pound man. This was a freak injury off of a perfectly legal, and frankly, not terribly viscious hit. Relax people.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow. Yeah, all those stupid quarterbacks who can’t take players diving at their knees, what a bunch of pussies.

And what does a 320lb lineman have to worry about a 200lb running back going for his knees? Chop blocking rules are for sissies.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude why do you have to argue me on everything, didnt win the last point so you have to win this one?

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

because you're wrong?

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You must at least admit that baseball players in general are pussies. I mean obviously not as big of a pussy as you, but JD Drew gets a hammie strain and he’s out for 4 weeks. Joe Mauer is out for Leg weekness. Chase utley was out for a hurt thumb. Guys in the NFL play with broken arms.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say that makes guys in the NFL idiots

and guys like you perpetuate an asinine culture of faux masculinity that greatly increases the risk of serious injury for professional athletes.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

have you never seen an NFL player out for 4 weeks with a hammie strain? I sure as hell have. Like 30-50 guys a season. It’s pretty common.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you a woman

because your vagina is gaping

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bigot? Women have Vaginas that is a fact of life my friend

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you're using that fact...

to insult humans of all gender all at once… congratulations on that accomplishment. I’m sure your mother is proud.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

sexism and misogyny are forms of bigotry

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Women are, on the average, weaker than men.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So much this^

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Laughing in agreement.

Which is ironic on so many levels.

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot the word...

unnecessarily.

Posey’s injury is unnecessary and completely avoidable with a logical adjustment to the rules.

The legality of Cousins’ play adds nothing to the game, and took away so much as we have found out today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Soldiers get treatment for PTSD.

Does that make them weak? Because that’s “only” mental and emotional. Does it make the NFL smart or tough to allow their players to play through pain? Let’s ask the older players who are now disabled because of the culture in the NFL.

You have some pretty serious issues with your own identity as a human being. I pity you for thinking that men are defined only by their ability to be tough and act like pain is meaningless, and for trying to belittle those who disagree with you.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. I'm weak for standing up to a bully.

No bully has ever hidden behind false bravado and fake logic.

You have some pretty serious problems. Get help.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can make up words like bravado too

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

...really?

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

before I thought you were a misogynist, now I think you’re just a troll.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m think i’m growing to love you…. honestly

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or you could pass the 9th grade...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh we do...

we do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe you haven't...

earned the right to joke with anybody, given how little class you’ve shown in your arguments.

You’ve made a joke of yourself… easily recognizable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Surely, this never happens

when someone registers an account and posts specifically on one article.

I thought SBN had a registration/posting delay…

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Psssst.

You’re the joke.

Get it?

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for accuracy

"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson

"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.

by Sabean's_Folly on May 26, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never said or implied either of those points.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

as compared with other professional sports, i will stand by that

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

but i dont watch baseball to watch incredibly tough people. I watch to see people hit balls far and pitchers throw balls hard, among other things

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because collisions at the plate are exciting. I watch professional sports because they are exciting, I don’t watch them because they are safe and i approve of them. So taking the collision at the plate away would get rid of an exciting play in a sport i enjoy watching. People get hurt, that is the nature of sport, but we shouldnt take out an exciting part of baseball because one player from your team got hurt. Sure they took exciting head hits out of the NFL, but you can still make exciting hits without leading with you head, you lead with your shoulder like you’re taught. Eliminating the collision at the plate eliminates that entire part of the game. now everytime theres space between the catcher and runner its a almost for sure tag out.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah collisions at the plate dont happen every day, but when they happen their exciting, if i was only watching baseball for the collisions i’d be watching a lot of boring games

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

not nearly as exciting as a collision

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you are essentially saying

that you would rather live in a world where you can watch two people inflict serious, potentially fatal bodily harm on each other for your entertainment than to find less destructive ways for you to entertain yourself?

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one’s forcing these guys to play baseball, they arent indentured servants. They play baseball because they love it and he broke his ankle or whatever, it wasnt close to fatal

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That isn't a logical argument at all.

Plays at the plate can very well be fatal — two people colliding at ~15 mph is more than enough force required to cause traumatic brain injury or break a bone that could sever an artery.

Your first argument of players not being forced to play is absurd. Nobody forces people to fly on planes. Why should we have security at gates? Nobody forces people to drive cars. Why should we have seat belts?

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right but this is ENTERTAINMENT, not transportation. and i believe you can still get injured in a crash when you have your seat belt on

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's irrelevant.

Taking catcher collisions out of the game wouldn’t eliminate all injuries, either. The point, which several people have plainly stated, is that catcher collisions are totally pointless and against the rules.

You act like baseball players don’t have rights as human beings because they’re “only” entertainers. Do actors not have rights because they’re only entertainers? What about people who watch TV and are being entertained? Why bother preventing broadcasters from presenting shows that induce seizures if it increases someone else’s entertainment?

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nascar is boring, plus a 3000 pound car crashing into a wall at 200+ mph is much more dangerous than a baseball collision

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Given the frequency of crashes

and the proportion of driver injuries resulting from these crashes, I think you’re mistaken.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHAT?

So you’re saying that a collision of one guy running into another is more dangerous than a CAR crashing into a wall at over 200 miles per hour with thousands of pound of metal and flammable liquids around him?

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say any car.

NASCAR has engineered their cars to crash in as safe a way as possible, because they recognize that crashing is a frequent part of the sport, and that it severely harms their business if they, say, routinely lost drivers because they died in crashes or were unable to drive afterward.

It took them a long time to get there, but read for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascar#Driver_safety

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re good a looking things up on wikipedia, i realize its gotten safer cause it happens in the sport, but its still a car… crashing into a wall….. at 200 mph, what you said that i was mistaken when i said a nascar car crashing into a wall is more dangerous than a baseball collision, which is borderline insane.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not true.

You were talking about NASCAR. I responded in kind speaking specifically about NASCAR. It isn’t “borderline insane”.

Again, although their response to safety concerns took a long time, their drivers are in collisions at higher forces than catcher collisions.

Additionally, crashes in NASCAR happen much more frequently than plays at the plate resulting in a collision, too.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alright and what are the injury numbers and severities for both? You have all of this information about nascar but not a single thing about baseball, this whole article is a knee jerk reaction to a player getting injured.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.suite101.com/content/preventing-serious-injuries-in-baseball-a111451

Maybe you should inform yourself in the future before you decide to take an ignorant position.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

high school and college baseball players

Thanks for the google search, i did it too

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Children are better protected.

They’re also throwing and playing at lower velocities, and also weigh less.

Over to you.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Six injuries between catcher and baserunner between September 1981 and June 2002…. Sorry if i’m not suddenly up in arms

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

wheres the baseball catcher collision safety article. Buster Posey got hurt in a freak accident, this doesnt happen with every collision

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neither does injuries happen even in every NASCAR crash

Ever seen the many times the drivers walk away from crashes? Yet you and I both know that’s not proof that it’s not dangerous.

by Phillie697 on May 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not trying to feed a troll, but

I agree with etep4 on a majority of his points. Not his facts, but the points which he is trying to make, which you are all so conveniently ignoring in order to pick apart the fine details in his arguments.
You would all make fine politicians.

by TWinSS on Jun 2, 2011 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

i watched the play in real time

and in real time, you can see cousins swerve in order to hit posey

he couldve slid hard into the plate, jostling the ball from posey’s glove

that is what ford did last week against the a’s

he didnt

he is a busher

by bacci40 on May 26, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No he isn't.

Replying to this was why I showed up here…look upthread at all my digression you’re responsible for!

What are the odds that his foot will do a better job of “jostling”, as opposed to his whole body?
And I still think it was within the parameters of “acceptable play’”.
If Buster sets himself differently there’s a wholly different outcome to all of this.

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

so what's next?

plexiglass booth’s for batters? Impact airbags in Wrigley under the ivy that deploy if an outfielder gets too close running toward the wall? Why are they still wearing spikes? What about broken bats? maybe they should play with a big playground ball so if a batter hits it at the pitcher it won’t hurt if he gets hit…for that matter, seal off the field with plexiglass so fans can’t get hurt from foul balls….

by labsr4me on May 26, 2011 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

yes all of this makes perfect sense.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you have a point?

Is there a benefit to allowing players to crash into each other, in a non-contact sport no less?

by tomemos on May 26, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, but the court system would disagree about baseball being a non-contact sport

In D’Amico v. Tomkalski, 1999 WL 162985 (1999), Judge Pellegrino writes a home run of an opinion.

Here’s what Judge Pellegrino had to say in response to the plaintiff’s argument:

    A game where a ball is thrown, even at a slow speed, toward a batter so that it will be hit and, if possible caught by fielders poses risk of injury. The injury can arise from a batter being hit, a runner being struck, a fielder misjudging the trajectory of a hit or thrown ball. Even professional players are injured by such unintentional mistakes. Indeed such occurrences are recorded in official statistics called "errors." Baseball is a contact sport.

by labsr4me on May 26, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

That isn't what the case says.

That case involved a plaintiff suing a defendant over a ball thrown by a fielder (defendant) that hit a runner (plaintiff). “Contact”, in this context, is used in the sense of a tort.

That ruling says, essentially, that unless you willfully injure another person, you accept the risks associated with balls thrown by pitchers AND fielders (the plaintiff was arguing that fielders do not count).

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way, Rob...

Awesome article. It’s unfortunate that this story has brought out a vocal, idiotic, mouth-breathing minority of posters from SBN.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Do you really have to stoop to his level to make a point?

Aim higher.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on May 26, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right.

I wasn’t talking about him specifically, but your point is well taken. Second sentence retracted.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh come on

My level is clearly lower than that have some respect for an artist

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren't "idiotic" and "mouth breathing" prerequisites?

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 26, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am encouraged ...

by the poll results. Maybe it’s the heat of the moment, but public opinion seems pretty clear about this. If only the players will have similar clarity, because they’re the ones who will get in the way of doing the right thing here.

by Rob Neyer on May 26, 2011 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

The sports nation poll goes the opposite way… 82% against changing the rule.

I am heartened, however, that players like Brandon McCarthy, Peter Moylan, and others have come out against allowing stuff like this to continue.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 26, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your poll question was extremely biased and leading

and is therefore invalid….

More neutral question

“Should baseball outlaw home-plate collisions?”

"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones

by cesarhernandez on May 27, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jamie Burke is calling from 2004:

“Gee, NOW getting trucked when not blocking the plate should be against the rules? Call me for comment at my phone number potato-green-six wednesday-purple-monkey-dishwasher.”

by Yinka Double Dare on May 26, 2011 3:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Poll wording

Even though this is an opinion piece, the wording of the poll is flawed and biased. “destroyed Posey’s season” is biased wording and should have not been included in the question.

(Just saying)

by dianagram on May 26, 2011 3:43 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Not disagreeing with your point cause i frankly dont care, i just URGE you not to use the phrase (just saying). We know you’re saying it, cause you’re saying it, no need to say just saying.

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is this biased?

Fractures and bone breaks can take months to heal and weeks after that to rehab. Even if he returns in four months, it’ll be late September and the season will be almost over.

Maybe destroyed was the wrong word (something like “ended” instead?), but I don’t see how it’s biased.

by jwiscarson on May 26, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wonderful

this is how commenting interactions should go, obviously you are somewhat of an english connoisseur, i wouldve never picked up the biased wording thing, although the entire article did seem biased, like it was written by a SF beat writer

by etep4 on May 26, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If this happened to Ryan Doumit no one would say anything

but a All-Star caliber catcher has this happened to him and all hell breaks loose. I do feel bad for the kid because if he tore up his knee his catching career is just about over because of all the stress put on the knees while catching. But we shouldn’t be freaking out and making a rule rught after it happened, if you’re going to make a new rule wait until the end of season to introduce it so you have time to make it as good of a rule as possible.

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, but few understand." Wes Westrum
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on May 26, 2011 4:49 PM EDT reply actions  

this was discussed above

yes, it sucks that there wouldn’t be the same level of discussion if it happened to a less-prominent name, but that doesn’t invalidate the points being raised.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on May 26, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you.

I hope I never have to read, even one more time, that the story wouldn’t be as big if it weren’t Buster Posey.

by Rob Neyer on May 26, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meanwhile, seven catchers go down in rapid succession.

I laughed at Sheehan’s “fan allegiance” line.
Apparently he’s never read the Az. Snakepit.

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 26, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

This didn't become an issue yesterday

It comes up regularly, but obviously there’s more discussion after a significant injury. A couple of points: Most sports don’t allow one player to run deliberately into a defenseless opponent. The rules of baseball already prohibit the catcher from blocking the runner’s path to the plate, but the rule is poorly enforced. So people aren’t suggesting a new rule but simply a return to enforcing the rules as they have been written for decades.

by rfs1962 on May 26, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I say anything in support of not changing the rule

You people will apparently bash me like I’m a catcher covering home. It’s a part of the game. If a catcher doesn’t want to get bowled over, he should either concede the plate or change his position. The runner takes just as much risk as the catcher does. It’s exciting, it’s dangerous, it doesn’t need to be enforced by a rule.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on May 26, 2011 10:29 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Beanballs were also part of the game.

Now they are not. Everyone is better off for it.

"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"

by El Person on May 26, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The runner controls the situation and makes the choice; the catcher can only react. They level of risk between catcher and runner is not at all equivalent.

I’d rather see plays that are exciting because they are skilled and healthy. If you want to watch people stupidly injure themselves, watch Spike TV.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 27, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Posey played it wrong too

Baseball Physics 101, assuming roughly equal mass, the runner will win a collision at home plate nearly everytime. A catcher knows this and is taking a chance when he decides to leap toward the plate in a bang bang play. Problem was, Posey really put himself into a position where a hard hit might go bad for him. If you’rd a catcher and decide to try and block the plate, you have to be in a position where you fall backwards in a collision, not resist it with a foot planted.

Most runners will veer right and try and sneak a left hand over the plate, Cousins didn’t. He saw Posey diving toward the plate, and he decided to come in Peter Rose hard and try and knock the ball from Posey’s glove. 99 out of a 100 times, everybody is fine afterward.

Cousins’ could’ve veered right and reached in with his left arm, but what if Posey’s blocked the plate totally by then? Then he’s out. Cousins decided to come in hard, and in doing so, took a chance he could get hurt bad as well. Even if you win a collision, you can lose on the ground impact and break your wrist real easy.

IF baseball wants to stop this, get catchers off the plate, and call out a runner who flagrantly rams into a catcher who’s not in the basepath or over the plate.

I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I am all out of bubble gum.

by Tex Pantego on May 26, 2011 11:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Posey had control of the baseline, but he was never fully in it. Other than his foot positioning, there is nothing to blame Posey for. Cousins veered left into the play, rather than trying to knock the ball out on the swipe tag. That was his choice, not Posey’s.

You keep calling in Affeldt. I don't think that means what you think it means.

by Solidarity on May 27, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the catcher is totally blocking the plate

I understand a guy barreling in to the catcher, but that was NOT the situation with Posey. Catchers are the most valuable players in baseball; lose your starter on an unnescessary collision and you’re done.

by ccthemovieman on May 27, 2011 12:02 AM EDT reply actions  

And like others have said

Neyer’s article (and many others) wouldn’t even have been written if…

1. It happened to a non-star, non-white player
2. Posey hadn’t got seriously hurt on the play

And if Posey makes the play, doesn’t get hurt, and the runner is out, the entire discussion today is how Posey is the greatest catcher ever and he’s so tough and gritty (and white!). There would be no discussion about the relative dangers of said play.

While we’re all being reactionary, lets ban mob-game ending celebrations (Kendry Morales)….that’s a lot more chaotic, unpredictable and dangerous than two guys colliding at home plate.

I don’t think Cousins necessarily had to knock him over. He might have been able to go wide right and around him. But he’s got to make a split-second decision in the heat of the moment of a tie game. Can’t fault him for what he did.

"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones

by cesarhernandez on May 27, 2011 12:49 AM EDT reply actions  

And another thing

How do you enforce some of these solutions like not allowing contact at the plate, or not letting catchers block the plate? Sometimes, catchers just happen to be in the way because of where they are fielding the throw….and outfielder’s throws can’t always accurate. And you can’t ask a runner to just yield to the catcher. He has just as much right to the plate as the catcher has to stopping him.

"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones

by cesarhernandez on May 27, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or requiring a guy to give himself up and slide into home

against an armored, protected catcher in front of the plate leaves the runner more susceptible to injury…

"There's only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today!" --- Syrio Forel, Game of Thrones

by cesarhernandez on May 27, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Obstruction and Second Base

So if the rules get changed for this type of play at homeplate will the same thing happen at second base where the runner tries to break up the play?

by Job38 on May 27, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I hope so

I think that they should be. It’s not just dangerous, but busch league to see baserunners sliding nowhere near the bag with the intent of taking out the fielder trying to turn two. I don’t know what the difference is between that and A-Rod yelling, “I Got It” to mess up a player positioning himself for a pop-up.

by cynomyso on May 27, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

"busch league"?

Are you impugning either beer or Cardinal baseball, Sir?

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares "why" we're having this discussion?

Obviously, we’d like to be more forward thinking about such things so we can avoid injuries as much as possible, but unfortunately that is not how human beings operate.

The facts of this situation are pretty clear.

1. Baseball is not a contact sport the way football is a contact sport. Tackling your opponent is not an essential aspect of the sport.

2. Slamming into a fielder in order to jar the bar loose is not permitted at any other base.

3. A similar play is basically outlawed in football. Defenders cannot crush a punt returner if he signals for a fair catch. So even the NFL, where players are more heavily padded than catchers, acknowledges the danger of such a play.

4. Further, no amount of padding protects joints (as someone mentioned above) or prevents concussions.

5. Changing the rule should not effect the game that much. Amateur leagues have a slide rule at all bases and there isn’t a noticeable difference.

6. The bottom line: The important action in these situations is tagging the runner before he crosses the plate. Eliminating collisions does not have an impact on this whatsoever.

by keithprime on May 29, 2011 10:49 PM EDT reply actions  

“The important action in these situations is tagging the runner before he crosses the plate. Eliminating collisions does not have an impact on this whatsoever.”

I feel we’re at least back to Square One.
Why does the “blockquote” icon even present itself here?

Initial reaction to the Posey injury by the fellow who runs the Az. Snakepit:
"Hahahahahaha! Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard."
by Jim McLennan on May 25, 2011 11:24 PM MST

Jim McLennan: all class.
Minus those first two consonants.

by victor frankenstein on May 30, 2011 7:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Just curious about your sig:

Are you implying Jim McLennan is “a class”?
I must confess to being slightly confused by your wording.

by TWinSS on Jun 2, 2011 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

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